The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
What Chimpanzees Reveal About How We Connect and Divide with Aaron Sandel
Research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant are partnering on a new weekly podcast grounded in an unflinching commitment to learning and unlearning. At a time when public discourse rewards certainty over inquiry, The Curiosity Shop features two of the world's most sought-after experts on connection, change, and leadership making the case for slowing down, asking better questions, and embracing informed complexity over easy answers. Bringing together their left and right brain sensibilities — she’s a qualitative researcher; he’s a quantitative researcher — they explore some of the defining questions of our time, unpack the research reshaping how we live, lead, and love, and dive deep into the ideas, evidence, and cultural moments intriguing them the most. New episodes drop every Thursday. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Show Notes
Primatologist Aaron Sandel has spent over a decade studying the Ngogo chimpanzees, witnessing one of the largest known chimp communities split into two factions. In this episode, Aaron joins Brené and Adam to explore what chimpanzees can teach us about friendship, conflict, belonging, and human nature. He shares what he learned from watching these chimps show affection, navigate dominance hierarchies, and face the effects of division within their own community. Aaron also reflects on what it was like to watch chimps he knew by name turn against one another, while exploring the surprising depth of bonds between chimpanzees. Together, they explore the parallels between chimpanzee behavior and the ways we harmonize, polarize, and build communities in our own lives.
Prof. Aaron Sandel – Aaron Sandel, aaron-sandel.com
The Ngogo Chimpanzee Project – Watts, D., et al., ngogochimpanzeeproject.org
Male-Male Relationships and the Transition to Adulthood in Chimpanzees – Sandel, A., 2017, University of Michigan (PhD Dissertation)
First Clearly Documented Split in World’s Largest Known Chimpanzee Community Leads to Deadly Violence – Erin Walters, April 9, 2026, UT Austin News
Lethal Conflict After Group Fission in Wild Chimpanzees – Sandel, A., et al., 2026, Science
Hunting Behavior of Chimpanzees at Ngogo, Kibale National Park, Uganda – Watts, D. & Mitani, J., 2002, International Journal of Primatology
Is a chimp a monkey? – Catherine Annau & Tatiana Hayek, January 4, 2017, Jane Goodall Institute Canada
Chimp Empire – Directed by James Reed, narrated by Mahershala Ali, April 19, 2023, Netflix (Documentary Series)
Chimp Empire | Mahershala Ali | Official Trailer – Netflix, March 22, 2023, YouTube (Video)
Conflicted Opinion: Yale Chimpanzee Expert Weighs In on 'Chimp Empire' – Mike Cummings, June 8, 2023, YaleNews
Which Chimp Is Which in Chimp Empire? – Netflix, April 26, 2023, Netflix Tudum
What Happened to the Chimps in ‘Chimp Empire?’ – Netflix Tudum, May 2, 2023, Netflix
Kibale National Park – Google, Google Maps (Map)
Kibale National Park – Kibale Chimpanzee Project, Harvard University
Uganda Wildlife Authority – Uganda Wildlife Authority, ugandawildlife.org
Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience – Brené Brown, 2021, brenebrown.com (Book)
The Social Self: On Being the Same and Different at the Same Time – Brewer, M., 1991, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin
How Was Chimp Empire Made? – Netflix Tudum, May 2, 2023, Netflix
Male Chimpanzees Form Enduring and Equitable Social Bonds – Mitani, J., 2009, Animal Behaviour
My Life Among the Apes – Mitani, J., 2020, American Journal of Primatology
Rise of the Warrior Apes – James Reed (Director), 2017, KEO Films (Film - Prequel to Chimp Empire)
Most VIOLENT Chimpanzee Society Ever Discovered | Rise of the Warrior Apes – Discovery Australia, February 16, 2018, YouTube (Video)
What a Chimpanzee ‘Civil War’ Can Teach Us About How Societies Fall Apart – Nathan Rott, April 13, 2026, NPR
Lethal Aggression in Pan Is Better Explained by Adaptive Strategies Than Human Impacts – Wilson, M., et al., 2014, Nature
Intergroup Aggression in Chimpanzees and War in Nomadic Hunter-Gatherers: Evaluating the Chimpanzee Model – Wrangham, R. & Glowacki, L., 2012, Human Nature
UT Researchers Find Polarization, Lethal Conflict Among Chimpanzees – Khoi Nguyen, April 21, 2026, The Daily Texan
Adolescent Male Chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) Form Social Bonds With Their Brothers and Others During the Transition to Adulthood – Sandel, A., et al., 2020, American Journal of Primatology
Glimpses of Fatherhood Found in Non-Pair-Bonding Chimps – University of Texas at Austin, January 15, 2020, ScienceDaily
Human Respiratory Viruses Continue to Spread in Wild Chimpanzees – University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, January 2019, UW-Madison
Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead – Brené Brown, 2012, brenebrown.com (Book)
Anthropomorphism and Anthropodenial: Consistency in Our Thinking About Humans and Other Animals – de Waal, F., 1999, Philosophical Topics
Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? – Frans de Waal, 2016, W. W. Norton (Book)
Constraints on Relationship Formation Among Female Primates – Barrett, L. & Henzi, S., 2002, Behaviour
The Nicomachean Ethics of Aristotle – Aristotle, translated by F. H. Peters, 1893, Project Gutenberg (Book)
Think Your Adolescence Was Hard? Try Being a Chimp – Harvard Gazette, May 21, 2026, Harvard University
Social Relationships Between Chimpanzee Sons and Mothers Endure but Change – Reddy, R. & Sandel, A., 2020, Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology
Puberty Initiates a Unique Stage of Social Learning and Development Prior to Adulthood: Insights From Studies of Adolescence in Wild Chimpanzees – Reddy, R., et al., 2022, Developmental Cognitive Neuroscience
Male–Male Relationships in Chimpanzees and the Evolution of Human Pair Bonds – Sandel, A., 2023, Evolutionary Anthropology
Romantic Love in Humans May Have Evolved From Same-Sex Friendship – Lauren Macknight, June 7, 2023, Phys.org
‘It’s Like ‘Game of Thrones’’: Otter Clans Wage War Over Space in Singapore – Maina Chen, October 25, 2021, Yahoo News
Conservation – The Ngogo Chimpanzee Project, ngogochimpanzeeproject.org
Mass Communication and Para-Social Interaction: Observations on Intimacy at a Distance – Donald Horton & R. Richard Wohl, 1956, Psychiatry 19(3):215-229
Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know – Adam Grant, 2021, adamgrant.net (Book)
Callings – Amy Wrzesniewski, 2010, September 1, 2010, The Oxford Handbook of Positive Organizational Scholarship
Unpacking Emotion Differentiation: Transforming Unpleasant Experience by Perceiving Distinctions in Negativity – Kashdan, T., et al., 2015, Current Directions in Psychological Science
How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain – Lisa Feldman Barrett, 2017, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt (Book)
Does Language Do More Than Communicate Emotion? – Lindquist, K., et al., 2015, Current Directions in Psychological Science
Brené Brown Says You’re Doing Feelings Wrong – Dan Harris, April 2022, Ten Percent Happier (Podcast)
Ancestral Diversity – Niedenthal Emotions Lab, University of Wisconsin–Madison
Great Ape Gestures: Intentional Communication With a Rich Set of Innate Signals – Byrne, R., et al., 2017, Animal Cognition
Towards a Great Ape Dictionary: Inexperienced Humans Understand Common Nonhuman Ape Gestures – Graham, K. & Hobaiter, C., 2023, PLOS Biology
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